JAMA Pediatrics rejected our letter criticizing a study that pulled school children into the school yard and made a dog sniff them to see if they had COVID19
JAMA Pediatrics rejected our letter criticizing a study that pulled school children into the school yard and made a dog sniff them to see if they had COVID19
A day of fun for the kids, dogs too. and scientists.... A scientific hypothesis quite elegant, interesting. Dog sniffing experiment will be repeated in various populations, elderly, prison, military. So it goes. Kids tested in a me too manner of investigation. Like hundreds of me too papers published every day. Why not?
Level of hysteria in discussing anything in US rising. A letter to the editor rejected, a day of rage against JAMA pediatrics announced. Why not?
How should an IRB approach ethics of these type of investigation? Should kids have the right to decline testing? Or decline going to school at all? Should elders decide? School board? Parents? Kids by majority vote?
Should the public know the names of IRB members? Should there be a punishment besides public shaming? For the authors, editors, peer reviewers. Why not?
Make science great again! And let kids and dogs have some fun.
Is the picture in the article current? Why are they wearing masks outside?
No, i will assume the best.
They have severe seasonal allergies and each child has made an independent decision with parental input, that the benefits of avoiding the symptoms of seasonal allergies outweigh the risk of other students/teachers being unable to effectively read the child’s facial expressions. In addition, tolerating the discomfort of the mask. Each child has weighed the risks and benefits, with the help of parent, and concluded the mask is worth it.
According to a APOPO rats have detected more than 23,000 cases missed by local health clinics. The rats detect tuberculosis from human sputum. Search national geographic animals, detect disease.
I was shocked hearing about this type of study. No reasonable person should have thought this was a good idea. Least of all on children. We should never rely on animals to detect diseases.
I know that the study was about testing for CoVid on children. I object to that as well for many reasons, most of them in this article and the first time Vinay spoke about the study.
One of the problems with using animals is mentioned in the article. The idea of false positives being high. My issue with using animals isn’t about using them for the purposes of experimentation.
The biggest problem is that because dogs are independent beings, you can’t be certain that they aren’t introducing subjective experience into the process. Whatever they detect might not be the virus.
You mean the same JAMA that is "gender affirming"? I am shocked they would subject kids to being sniffed by a dog. Shocked I tell you.
Let's sniff out what is greatly more damaging to minors than being sniffed by a dog. The dog is bad enough but creating gender confusion is many magnitudes more harmful.
We just had the dogs sniff our nursing home residents. Everyone thought it was adorable but when I told them what the plan is down the road they realized that it’s not adorable. Whoever made this dog sniff day possible understand that of course consent would be easy to obtain from a desperately lonely population. Our nursing home never stopped masking, mandates, testing, and isolation and even though some families and patients realize that these archaic practices are useless and instead extremely cruel everyone bows down. Despite residents noticeably declining and dying at a rapid rate where even kitchen staff are noticing....it’s crazy that everyone still goes along. It’s beyond twilight zone.
Nobody got incensed. These people are on their 7th Covid shot, interestingly a few days after the dog sniffing.
These residents have various degrees of dementia and/or are bedbound, blind, and for the few that have their wits about them realize they have no better options. They’re riding it out like anyone else is…what else can be done? It feels very hopeless in their environment.
I grew up in California in the 70's and 80's. I was born with with a physical defect in my middle and inner ears that resulted in hearing loss. Every year in elementary school, the hearing bus would come and the whole class went into the hearing bus for group hearing tests. Of course I failed the group test. I was then brought to the front of the bus and tested while the rest of the class watched me fail again. It was humiliating during the testing, but the "teasing", now called bullying, was even worse. It would last for months only to be repeated the following year.
My school, my teachers and the district knew I had this hearing loss that hearing aides could not correct. But every year I was subjected to this demeaning exercise. There was no prior notice of the bus coming, it just appeared and I had to submit as I had no way of refusing as a child. I would have given anything to not be subjected to that degrading experience each year. As a middle aged adult, I have refused all hearing tests. To this day I can not bear to wear head phones or even ear muffs, as that was what they used in the hearing tests. A few years ago my doctor scheduled a hearing test for me and I had a full on panic attack and cancelled the test.
Kids should not have been used in this manner for this test. The down sides are larger then the upsides. Kids are cruel to their peers. Covid was marketed as a deadly disease that would kill grownups, particularly grandparents. Singling out children for potentially having this in front of their peers was wrong.
I’m so sorry you were subjected to this. It was wrong.
I’m probably a bit older than you, but I recall in elementary school there was a chain link fence dividing the playground. On the other side we’re the “retarded kids”, as we were told. They were taunted mercilessly through the fence by the “normal kids”, and the memory still haunts me decades later.
An IRB determines if a study is ethical. Write your letter to the IRB that approved it. The journal accepted their assessment. You are barking up the wrong tree!
A day of fun for the kids, dogs too. and scientists.... A scientific hypothesis quite elegant, interesting. Dog sniffing experiment will be repeated in various populations, elderly, prison, military. So it goes. Kids tested in a me too manner of investigation. Like hundreds of me too papers published every day. Why not?
Level of hysteria in discussing anything in US rising. A letter to the editor rejected, a day of rage against JAMA pediatrics announced. Why not?
How should an IRB approach ethics of these type of investigation? Should kids have the right to decline testing? Or decline going to school at all? Should elders decide? School board? Parents? Kids by majority vote?
Should the public know the names of IRB members? Should there be a punishment besides public shaming? For the authors, editors, peer reviewers. Why not?
Make science great again! And let kids and dogs have some fun.
This is beyond disgusting. The whole thing. I am ashamed of my profession more and more these days.
you were right to call this out, it is horrible and hard to imagine why someone would think this was a good idea.
JAMA is a toilet-paper publication, anyway. I trash it as soon as it arrives...you know, since I don't have an outhouse.
Is the picture in the article current? Why are they wearing masks outside?
No, i will assume the best.
They have severe seasonal allergies and each child has made an independent decision with parental input, that the benefits of avoiding the symptoms of seasonal allergies outweigh the risk of other students/teachers being unable to effectively read the child’s facial expressions. In addition, tolerating the discomfort of the mask. Each child has weighed the risks and benefits, with the help of parent, and concluded the mask is worth it.
My young grandson is very allergic to dogs to the point he has to carry an epipen. These people are dangerous psychopaths!
According to a APOPO rats have detected more than 23,000 cases missed by local health clinics. The rats detect tuberculosis from human sputum. Search national geographic animals, detect disease.
Yes, they should, but they are not required, as they are a private corporation.
I was shocked hearing about this type of study. No reasonable person should have thought this was a good idea. Least of all on children. We should never rely on animals to detect diseases.
The article is abourt ethics of running this test on children, not about whether or not to use animals in general.
I heard some animals had become extremely good at detecting diseases. https://www.finavia.fi/en/newsroom/2020/covid-19-dogs-arrive-airport-able-identify-virus-earlier-laboratory-tests
What is your objection to training them and validating the training?
I know that the study was about testing for CoVid on children. I object to that as well for many reasons, most of them in this article and the first time Vinay spoke about the study.
One of the problems with using animals is mentioned in the article. The idea of false positives being high. My issue with using animals isn’t about using them for the purposes of experimentation.
The biggest problem is that because dogs are independent beings, you can’t be certain that they aren’t introducing subjective experience into the process. Whatever they detect might not be the virus.
I hear you. This is an absurd study. It would have been better if the invesigators included actual 'at risk' population such as the elderly4.
You mean the same JAMA that is "gender affirming"? I am shocked they would subject kids to being sniffed by a dog. Shocked I tell you.
Let's sniff out what is greatly more damaging to minors than being sniffed by a dog. The dog is bad enough but creating gender confusion is many magnitudes more harmful.
We just had the dogs sniff our nursing home residents. Everyone thought it was adorable but when I told them what the plan is down the road they realized that it’s not adorable. Whoever made this dog sniff day possible understand that of course consent would be easy to obtain from a desperately lonely population. Our nursing home never stopped masking, mandates, testing, and isolation and even though some families and patients realize that these archaic practices are useless and instead extremely cruel everyone bows down. Despite residents noticeably declining and dying at a rapid rate where even kitchen staff are noticing....it’s crazy that everyone still goes along. It’s beyond twilight zone.
Not sure why that got deleted.
Nobody got incensed. These people are on their 7th Covid shot, interestingly a few days after the dog sniffing.
These residents have various degrees of dementia and/or are bedbound, blind, and for the few that have their wits about them realize they have no better options. They’re riding it out like anyone else is…what else can be done? It feels very hopeless in their environment.
I grew up in California in the 70's and 80's. I was born with with a physical defect in my middle and inner ears that resulted in hearing loss. Every year in elementary school, the hearing bus would come and the whole class went into the hearing bus for group hearing tests. Of course I failed the group test. I was then brought to the front of the bus and tested while the rest of the class watched me fail again. It was humiliating during the testing, but the "teasing", now called bullying, was even worse. It would last for months only to be repeated the following year.
My school, my teachers and the district knew I had this hearing loss that hearing aides could not correct. But every year I was subjected to this demeaning exercise. There was no prior notice of the bus coming, it just appeared and I had to submit as I had no way of refusing as a child. I would have given anything to not be subjected to that degrading experience each year. As a middle aged adult, I have refused all hearing tests. To this day I can not bear to wear head phones or even ear muffs, as that was what they used in the hearing tests. A few years ago my doctor scheduled a hearing test for me and I had a full on panic attack and cancelled the test.
Kids should not have been used in this manner for this test. The down sides are larger then the upsides. Kids are cruel to their peers. Covid was marketed as a deadly disease that would kill grownups, particularly grandparents. Singling out children for potentially having this in front of their peers was wrong.
I’m so sorry you were subjected to this. It was wrong.
I’m probably a bit older than you, but I recall in elementary school there was a chain link fence dividing the playground. On the other side we’re the “retarded kids”, as we were told. They were taunted mercilessly through the fence by the “normal kids”, and the memory still haunts me decades later.
JAMA is a total joke. Only the ignorant take it seriously in 2023.
An IRB determines if a study is ethical. Write your letter to the IRB that approved it. The journal accepted their assessment. You are barking up the wrong tree!
Imagine still thinking that dissent merits a respectful response.
The social contract is broken. It never actually existed.